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Miguel · 03-18-2007

you said

A lot of people don't see gay rights as a question of anyone approving of homosexuality.

My reply is

I dont believe that Christians should not be forced into bowing down to the god of Gay Rights, A Christian will act out of conscience because Christians are obligated to obey God rather then Man, Gay Rights dose more then aprove of homosexuality it states that every one must aprove of its practice when the God of the bible says it is wrong, a morel sin, acording to Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, God does not create a person with homosexual desires, A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice.

We also believe and teach that homosexuality is just as forgivable a sin as all other sins, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God’s love and desire to save extends to homosexuals (John 3:16; Romans 5:8).

Again we are not speaking out against any individual, we are simply dealing with the issue of Sin.

You wrote

There are people who are harassed (vandalism, threats of violence, etc.), bullied, and not treated fairly or justly. To turn a deaf ear on such matters, is not Christian.

My Response

If people are harassed though vandalism, threats of violence, etc, yes i agree it is wrong this is not what we are taught and this is in accordence with Christ, now tell me one Christian who has actively gone against any indevidual on the bases of vandalism, threats of violence, etc.

Speaking against sin is not simply bullying people into the Kingdom of God, God dose not support that, it is simply again denouncing sin not the indevidual.

You Stated

That some people who are mistreated are sinners in one way or another, shouldn't surprise anyone who believes that we all are sinners.

My repsonse

Name one case where a Christian has mistreated a individual because of their sin, yes we are all sinners and in need of a Saviour.

You Stated

It seems to me it's pretty simple: don't like homosexuality, fine; don't approve of homosexual actions, fine; say so in public, fine; but also be against harassment, bullying, injustice, and speak against the sort of unfairness that would treat whole groups of people as second-class or third-rate citizens.

My Response,

You're making an overstated generalization, the issue is not where a Christian likes homosexuality or not, to a Christian the issue is what God says, not the individual, its not for me to say whether or not homosexuality is wrong, as it is also not for me to say whether or not stealing is wrong, its for God to state it, and he does, the point being to a Christian the Bible is a authority we base our faith on, and looking at more of what the God of the Bible things about the Issue and every Issue for that matter, it is wrong for me to say stealing is wrong, but it would be right for me to say God says stealing is a sin, God says the practice of Homosexuality is a sin, and not I.

You stated

People get riled up and on either side people will want their emotions recognized on the subject,

My response

Well okay, the issue is about for a Christian's prespective how this will affect us, our freedoms to practice our faith outside the confines of a Church meeting, how this will affect Charities etc, this has nothing to do with only emotional aspects but practical aspects of having the freedoms to practice what we are obligated to obey.

your Statement

and it gets personal, gay people get frustrated at lies that are sometimes made against them,

my reply

ok you just made a generalization, first and foremost we are forbidden as believers to bear false witness against another, what Christian is spreading false rumours against any individual homosexual ????

You stated

and people who are against homosexual behavior get frustrated at the assumptions that their disagreement is something more obnoxious when it isn't,

My response

Again to a Christian it's not simply about just having a moral dissagreement, its about what God said not what I think.

God is my authority.

You stated

and then the next thing you know someone is saying how it's unjust to not accept homosexual behavior as moral and another person is saying how it's wrong for the government to even consider gay rights -

My response

The issue is that the Gay rights groups are at war with the God of the Bible, the soul aim is to remove the bible alltogether as this has happend in Canada.

Goto

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...jeremiah+films

Watch the vid.

The issue is what the God of the Bible thinks of this issue, again not what I think.

You stated

- in those examples both are missing key points: injustice is about people being harmed or mistreated or treated unfairly, not about disagreements over moral judgment; governments are supposed to recognize certain civil and human rights to all as a matter of principle, not to deny rights to people because they are gay.

My Response

Under God Christians are not to compromise his moral position on this issue, for example a Christian can sell books to homosexuals, but God dose not allow two homosexual men to sleep in the bed together, and to marry etc. This is forbidden acording to the Bible, but we cannot refuse any sinner on other grounds, we are to show them love yes, but as long as that abides by the teachings of God, but we as believers of the cross are not to endorse or accept anything that goes against Gods word.

The Bible is our guide book, it tell us how to live, treat others, to love in the way we obey God, to bare witness to the truth.

You stated

I think people need to figure out how to get along in societies without trying to use the government to harass each other or without starting ridiculous fights amongst themselves.

My Reply

I believe that the goverment should not be involved in religous issues, or these issues, but Jesus said to be seperate to this world view and have a Christ Centered world view, Jesus said do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

You see, as long as we Christians are around, the world will never except us, Jesus said, the world hates you because of me.

03-18-2007	#5 (permalink)
Miguel Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 57	you said A lot of people don't see gay rights as a question of anyone approving of homosexuality. My reply is I dont believe that Christians should not be forced into bowing down to the god of Gay Rights, A Christian will act out of conscience because Christians are obligated to obey God rather then Man, Gay Rights dose more then aprove of homosexuality it states that every one must aprove of its practice when the God of the bible says it is wrong, a morel sin, acording to Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, God does not create a person with homosexual desires, A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice. We also believe and teach that homosexuality is just as forgivable a sin as all other sins, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God’s love and desire to save extends to homosexuals (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). Again we are not speaking out against any individual, we are simply dealing with the issue of Sin. You wrote There are people who are harassed (vandalism, threats of violence, etc.), bullied, and not treated fairly or justly. To turn a deaf ear on such matters, is not Christian. My Response If people are harassed though vandalism, threats of violence, etc, yes i agree it is wrong this is not what we are taught and this is in accordence with Christ, now tell me one Christian who has actively gone against any indevidual on the bases of vandalism, threats of violence, etc. Speaking against sin is not simply bullying people into the Kingdom of God, God dose not support that, it is simply again denouncing sin not the indevidual. You Stated That some people who are mistreated are sinners in one way or another, shouldn't surprise anyone who believes that we all are sinners. My repsonse Name one case where a Christian has mistreated a individual because of their sin, yes we are all sinners and in need of a Saviour. You Stated It seems to me it's pretty simple: don't like homosexuality, fine; don't approve of homosexual actions, fine; say so in public, fine; but also be against harassment, bullying, injustice, and speak against the sort of unfairness that would treat whole groups of people as second-class or third-rate citizens. My Response, You're making an overstated generalization, the issue is not where a Christian likes homosexuality or not, to a Christian the issue is what God says, not the individual, its not for me to say whether or not homosexuality is wrong, as it is also not for me to say whether or not stealing is wrong, its for God to state it, and he does, the point being to a Christian the Bible is a authority we base our faith on, and looking at more of what the God of the Bible things about the Issue and every Issue for that matter, it is wrong for me to say stealing is wrong, but it would be right for me to say God says stealing is a sin, God says the practice of Homosexuality is a sin, and not I. You stated People get riled up and on either side people will want their emotions recognized on the subject, My response Well okay, the issue is about for a Christian's prespective how this will affect us, our freedoms to practice our faith outside the confines of a Church meeting, how this will affect Charities etc, this has nothing to do with only emotional aspects but practical aspects of having the freedoms to practice what we are obligated to obey. your Statement and it gets personal, gay people get frustrated at lies that are sometimes made against them, my reply ok you just made a generalization, first and foremost we are forbidden as believers to bear false witness against another, what Christian is spreading false rumours against any individual homosexual ???? You stated and people who are against homosexual behavior get frustrated at the assumptions that their disagreement is something more obnoxious when it isn't, My response Again to a Christian it's not simply about just having a moral dissagreement, its about what God said not what I think. God is my authority. You stated and then the next thing you know someone is saying how it's unjust to not accept homosexual behavior as moral and another person is saying how it's wrong for the government to even consider gay rights - My response The issue is that the Gay rights groups are at war with the God of the Bible, the soul aim is to remove the bible alltogether as this has happend in Canada. Goto http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...jeremiah+films Watch the vid. The issue is what the God of the Bible thinks of this issue, again not what I think. You stated - in those examples both are missing key points: injustice is about people being harmed or mistreated or treated unfairly, not about disagreements over moral judgment; governments are supposed to recognize certain civil and human rights to all as a matter of principle, not to deny rights to people because they are gay. My Response Under God Christians are not to compromise his moral position on this issue, for example a Christian can sell books to homosexuals, but God dose not allow two homosexual men to sleep in the bed together, and to marry etc. This is forbidden acording to the Bible, but we cannot refuse any sinner on other grounds, we are to show them love yes, but as long as that abides by the teachings of God, but we as believers of the cross are not to endorse or accept anything that goes against Gods word. The Bible is our guide book, it tell us how to live, treat others, to love in the way we obey God, to bare witness to the truth. You stated I think people need to figure out how to get along in societies without trying to use the government to harass each other or without starting ridiculous fights amongst themselves. My Reply I believe that the goverment should not be involved in religous issues, or these issues, but Jesus said to be seperate to this world view and have a Christ Centered world view, Jesus said do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. You see, as long as we Christians are around, the world will never except us, Jesus said, the world hates you because of me. __________________ . Miguel Hayworth - Taking Christ to the Streets in the UK .